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The One I Left: I’ve restored the words "which adapted the tunes and phrasing of older folk songs" to the Lead, referring to "Girl From The North Country" and "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall". I think it’s important that the Lead mentions Dylan first made an impact with these songs (and also "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side") by marrying new lyrics to traditional melodies and forms. Best, Mick gold (talk) 23:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since the Lead serves as “a summary of the article’s most important contents”, BD’s talent for writing new lyrics to traditional tunes was surely crucial to the early impact he made with "Girl From The North Country", "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall", "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side" and more. Mick gold (talk) 08:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"I'm not sure what "phrasing" is supposed to mean in "adapted the tunes and phrasing of older songs". in any case, Dylan didn't merely use tunes he didn't write; he very often used lyrics and arrangements he didn't write as well. He didn't change (or "adapt") music as often as he altered or added to lyrics. It's significant as well that never credited his borrowings (if that's how you charitably care to characterize them). His records always inaccuratedly cited "Bob Dylan" as the sole source of these melodies, harmonies, arrangements, and lyrics. This wasn't ocassional practice either. Virtually every song on his second album "The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan", for example, is an alteration of some previously existing song and all are credited solely to "Bob Dylan". In the Cambridge scene, according to "Baby, Let Me Follow You Down" (the book, not the song), Dylan was known as "that skinny kid who goes around changing the lyrics to songs". Anyway, my position is that a succinct summary of this information does indeed belong in the lead. It's essential to what Dylan did in the first five years or so of his career, the years in which he established himself and rose to prominence. TheScotch (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Just wondering why there is nothing at all about Buddy Holly in this article - seems an extraordinary gap given the abundant evidence that Buddy H was VERY big to Bob D. Is there some sort of systematic decision to shut Buddy H out here? Looks that way ... and I find this quite disturbing. 118.211.57.205 (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have added Dylan's account of seeing Buddy Holly perform in Duluth on January 31, 1959, quoting from Dylan's Nobel Prize lecture. Mick gold (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:NICKNAME, MOS:FULLNAME, and MOS:HYPOCORISM, Dylan's legal name should be mentioned first in this article, and "Bob" should be excluded. There is no need to have it written in such a complicated way. The "Bob" name does not need to be mentioned as it is a common hypocorism. This is the case on tons of other articles, including those who use the "Bob" name, such as Bob Marley and Bob Saget.
The first sentence should read:
Robert Dylan (born Robert Allen Zimmerman; May 24, 1941) is an American singer-songwriter.
I am aware this has been discussed before, but that was a year and a half ago, and I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that we are continuing to break Wikipedia's policies for no real reason. There were also many people who agreed with the above way of writing in the previous discussions. Strugglehouse (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think this links to the last time Dylan's name was discussed: [1] I'm in favor of beginning the article with the name this famous artist is universally known by, but let a thousand editors contend in search of a consensus. Mick gold (talk) 10:14, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Mick gold I just don't see the point in going against multiple guidelines for no real reason other than "I like it that way". Should we go to every article of someone who doesn't use their full legal name and move it into a bracket? Strugglehouse (talk) 10:30, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the point of talking this over yet again. All these "rules" are guidelines, and if there are sufficient reasons to do something slightly different on a particular article, that's fine. This isn't something worth expending electrons over, even if they are cheap.Brianyoumans (talk) 15:02, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, looking at the discussion Mick linked to above, how about this comment:
"It's because of the principle of least astonishment. Readers will have heard of Bob Dylan, and many will be aware that he was born Robert Allen Zimmerman. Many will also be aware that Bob Marley was born Robert Nesta Marley - it won't be a surprise to them that that was his legal name. But it will astonish many readers to find Bob Dylan's legal name of Robert Dylan - without any explanation - as the opening words of the article. It's a name which is rarely if ever used. Under most circumstances, WP:MOSNICKNAME works fine. But in this case its use comes across as excessively pedantic. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)"
@Brianyoumans To say that readers will be "astonished" to learn that someone called Bob is legally called Robert is a bit overkill. It's not that surprising in my opinion, especially since his birth name is also Robert. It's not like it's a completely different name. Strugglehouse (talk) 17:26, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point. The person in question was Robert Allen Zimmerman not just at birth but until around the time he arrived in Greenwich Village embarking seriously and intently on a career in show business. "Bob Dylan" was merely his stage name, and he was still legally Zimmerman at first. In real life, from childhood on, he always went by either Robert or Bobby, never "Bob". He says in his memoir that he deliberately adopted "Bob" for his stage name so as not to be confused with Bobby Darin, who was popular at the time. Apparently at some point later, Zimmerman had his name legally changed, and under the circumstances it should indeed be surprising to anyone who knows his history that he had it changed to "Robert Dylan", not "BOB Dylan". His stage name is "BOB Dylan". TheScotch (talk) 06:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@TheScotch Someone named Robert goes by an extremely common nickname for Robert. That is not surprising. No one is going to come to the article and not be able to wrap their head around the fact that Bob Dylan and Robert Dylan are the same person. Even so, it doesn't matter what Dylan's legal name is, it should always be displayed first. See MOS:LEGALNAME. Additionally, these common nicknames should not be used in the lead at all. See MOS:HYPOCORISM. As a compromise, we could display Robert "Bob" Dylan (born Robert Allen Zimmerman;... While I don't really agree with this, and this technically still goes against guidelines, it's a better option than having the legal name displayed in brackets. The legal name should always be first. Strugglehouse (talk) 07:29, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Australian critic Jack Marx credited Dylan with changing the persona of the rock star: "What cannot be disputed is that Dylan invented the arrogant, faux-cerebral posturing that has been the dominant style in rock since, with everyone from Mick Jagger to Eminem educating themselves from the Dylan handbook". Who is Jack Marx? Why is his opinion important enough to be included? Jack Upland (talk) 03:24, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This Jack Marx had better be pretty be pretty damn significant for an opinion that ludicrous to be included. I'd hunt it down and strike it right now if I had a clue about which part of the article it might be infesting. TheScotch (talk) 07:03, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Dates" in this sense and "gigs" are both unencyclopedic slang. Neither belongs in this article. Just say Dylan "performed twice with Bobby Vee".TheScotch (talk) 06:42, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Re: “Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement”. It strikes me as disingenuous to equate the involvement of these two. Baez was heavily and deeply involved, whereas Dylan seemed to me minimally and superficially involved. How many marches, rallies, and protests did Dylan attend? (This is not a rhetorical question; if you know, please tell me.) I’m aware of only one. Did he know King personally and work with him intimately? Baez did. Did he ever spend time in jail for civil disobedience? Baez did. I suggest that we scrap this sentence and go directly to the march he attended. TheScotch (talk) 06:38, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TheScotch It’s true that Dylan never marched with MLK, nor was he imprisoned for participating in civil rights demonstrations. But Dylan’s songs were hugely important in the years of the civil rights struggles. “Blowin’ in the Wind” became a civil rights anthem as much as “We Shall Overcome”. This article includes Janet Maslin’s assessment of the significance of the Freewheelin’ album: “These were the songs that established [Dylan] as the voice of his generation—someone who implicitly understood how concerned young Americans felt about nuclear disarmament and the growing Civil Rights Movement: his mixture of moral authority and nonconformity was perhaps the most timely of his attributes.” I think the sentence you questioned is valid as a summary of how Dylan and Baez were perceived at the time of the March on Washington. Baez has said (for example, in Scorsese’s No Direction Home) that Dylan didn’t come to the demos but his songs were an important inspiration. Dylan and Baez were both prominent. Mick gold (talk) 11:23, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
